DUST Search - Changes to the Tactical and Breach AR variants

semperfi1999 wrote:

Kleanur Guy wrote:

semperfi1999 wrote:

You main problem is if you do this then you will need to completely overhaul the balance on the new scrambler. Personally I think the tact is fine but if any changes are to be made it needs to lose the 10% dmg increase that all weapons rcv'd and maybe a slight reduction in ROF. Frankly every single video I have seen of ppl using the so called "modded controllers " (which is not so nearly widespread as propaganda would suggest) shows that by and large those players have a much more difficult time hitting with their rounds than I do (and I dont use a modded controller). Alot of the videos show that those players have really high DPS on the wall.

If you have played in previous builds, damage nerfs often make this gun useless, only time it becomes useful if it is clearly overpowered or it becomes full auto :P. With the reduction in damage and RoF, and the increase in clip size, the gun has a new role. Any nerfs given to this version of the gun will not make it useless, because of its naturally higher DPS, players with good trigger fingers will use it due to this. They previously couldn't due to the low clip size, causing any nerf to damage be an overnerf causing the gun to again be useless.

@weapondigit
If you read the OP I reduced the damage by far more than just to 68, and did increase the clip size. I backed this up with math to show it was balanced, perhaps a bit too overpowered however damage reductions would still find the gun having its uses as opposed to other builds. Due to the weapon having naturally higher recoil, an increase to the headshot multiplier would be silly.

Um......not sure if you read what I wrote or if you are agreeing with what I said. Right now I actually only removed the 10% blanket buff that all weapons rcv'd. This is alot less of a nerf to dmg then your proposed changed. Actually in the build before chromosome there were only select few ppl who used the Tact because they knew how to aim. Most ppl stuck with the reg AR however the ppl who used the tact were so good that ppl were crying nerf because when they pulled up the tact they could to perform the same feats. This was back when the tact did even less dmg than what you were proposing but it had pinpoint accuracy with no recoil. Increasing the clip size on this weapon wont mean anything. If you nerf the dmg to the amount you have mentioned the gun will once again be worthless because the scrambler would be miles better (especially with its charge feature than can OHK any suit with 600 EHP if you HS them).


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Kleanur Guy SyNergy Gaming EoN. 249	Posted - 2013.05.21 09:10:00 - [1] - Quote In most FPS, the highest DPS weapons in the game are those that come with major drawbacks. High RoF, low accuracy, high DPS SMGs, long range, low RoF, large clip LMGs etc. Singleshot ARs are usually the strongest in almost all aspects, range, accuracy, damage, however are almost always lacking in clipsize, RoF and sometimes recoil. Obviously a very good player will make the best use of his clip, hitting every bullet, accompanied with a good trigger finger and accuracy. In Dust, the tac AR does the most damage at the highest range in a low range game. It's drawbacks are a much smaller clip and a bit more recoil. This was one of the previous reasons it was unusable, barely any bullets for the damage it does. My suggestion, lower the damage to around breach level, reduce its RoF to around 650 and bring its clip size to 35-45 that way, players who love to use singlefire weapons can use them while still being competetive and still slightly more rewarding than using the standard AR. Maths: Duvolle AR - 37.51DMG, 750 RoF (12.5 bullets per second), 60 bullets = 468.875DPS, 2250.6DMG per clip Duvolle Tac AR (currently) - 78.76DMG, 789.5 RoF (13.16bps), 30 bullets = 1036.35DPS, 2362.8DMG per clip There is no way it should beat the standard AR in both aspects this hard. NEW: Duvolle Tac AR - 55.13DMG, 600 RoF(10bps), 40 bullets = 551.3DPS, 2205.2 DMG per clip. (Small range nerf/range buff to all other weapons). This way, the Duvolle Tac has a slight DPS advantage to those who can use it properly, while still having a low RoF cap to prevent KB/M users/turbo controllers from abusing this, coupled with a lower damage per clip. Now that the Tac fills the old breach variants shoes it needs a change. You can't hipfire across the map, that is for CQC however it has the lowest DPS out of all AR variants, so whats the point of bringing it in upclose if you are going to lose EVERY TIME. CQC weapons are often low DMG, high RoF and high DPS with tighter hipspread. Why does the breach AR have that if it isn't supposed to be a CQC weapon. Solutions, get rid of the Breach AR and make a new variant that is a CQC weapon with a tighter hipspread, or turn it in to a 'Heavy machine gun' (not the type this game calls) with a smaller clip and higher accuracy. I understand other weapons use the breach name so the first option is impossible. Since the RoF is much lower and can not be abused by KB/M users or modded controllers, it would be perfect to fill the old Tac ARs shoes. OLD: Creodon Breach Assault Rifle - 56.32DMG, 400 RoF(6.66bps), 36 bullets = 375.466DPS, 2027.52DMG per clip NeW: Creodon Breach Assault Rifle - 63.01DMG, 450 RoF (7.5bps), 36 bullets = 472.575DPS, 2268.36DMG per clip. Low RoF, high damage, middle DPS, high accuracy with a very small clip. Obviously not ideal, but with the range on weapons in this game, this was how it has to be. I think my maths is right. This is a far better change than a pure damage nerf for the tactical AR, as it will probably make the gun useless again. With the changes to the damage and clipsize, the weapon damage can easily be nerfed without making it unusable it. This is also the type of singleshot weapon we are used to seeing in other games, giving it a new role, and creating oppurtunities for the Breach AR to see play. Thoughts?
Kleanur Guy SyNergy Gaming EoN. 254	Posted - 2013.05.21 10:26:00 - [2] - Quote Nothing? Perhaps I should have posted this in general discussion...
Kleanur Guy SyNergy Gaming EoN. 255	Posted - 2013.05.21 13:52:00 - [3] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: You main problem is if you do this then you will need to completely overhaul the balance on the new scrambler. Personally I think the tact is fine but if any changes are to be made it needs to lose the 10% dmg increase that all weapons rcv'd and maybe a slight reduction in ROF. Frankly every single video I have seen of ppl using the so called "modded controllers " (which is not so nearly widespread as propaganda would suggest) shows that by and large those players have a much more difficult time hitting with their rounds than I do (and I dont use a modded controller). Alot of the videos show that those players have really high DPS on the wall. If you have played in previous builds, damage nerfs often make this gun useless, only time it becomes useful if it is clearly overpowered or it becomes full auto :P. With the reduction in damage and RoF, and the increase in clip size, the gun has a new role. Any nerfs given to this version of the gun will not make it useless, because of its naturally higher DPS, players with good trigger fingers will use it due to this. They previously couldn't due to the low clip size, causing any nerf to damage be an overnerf causing the gun to again be useless. @weapondigit If you read the OP I reduced the damage by far more than just to 68, and did increase the clip size. I backed this up with math to show it was balanced, perhaps a bit too overpowered however damage reductions would still find the gun having its uses as opposed to other builds. Due to the weapon having naturally higher recoil, an increase to the headshot multiplier would be silly.
Kleanur Guy SyNergy Gaming EoN. 255	Posted - 2013.05.21 14:29:00 - [4] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Kleanur Guy wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: You main problem is if you do this then you will need to completely overhaul the balance on the new scrambler. Personally I think the tact is fine but if any changes are to be made it needs to lose the 10% dmg increase that all weapons rcv'd and maybe a slight reduction in ROF. Frankly every single video I have seen of ppl using the so called "modded controllers " (which is not so nearly widespread as propaganda would suggest) shows that by and large those players have a much more difficult time hitting with their rounds than I do (and I dont use a modded controller). Alot of the videos show that those players have really high DPS on the wall. If you have played in previous builds, damage nerfs often make this gun useless, only time it becomes useful if it is clearly overpowered or it becomes full auto :P. With the reduction in damage and RoF, and the increase in clip size, the gun has a new role. Any nerfs given to this version of the gun will not make it useless, because of its naturally higher DPS, players with good trigger fingers will use it due to this. They previously couldn't due to the low clip size, causing any nerf to damage be an overnerf causing the gun to again be useless. @weapondigit If you read the OP I reduced the damage by far more than just to 68, and did increase the clip size. I backed this up with math to show it was balanced, perhaps a bit too overpowered however damage reductions would still find the gun having its uses as opposed to other builds. Due to the weapon having naturally higher recoil, an increase to the headshot multiplier would be silly. Um......not sure if you read what I wrote or if you are agreeing with what I said. Right now I actually only removed the 10% blanket buff that all weapons rcv'd. This is alot less of a nerf to dmg then your proposed changed. Actually in the build before chromosome there were only select few ppl who used the Tact because they knew how to aim. Most ppl stuck with the reg AR however the ppl who used the tact were so good that ppl were crying nerf because when they pulled up the tact they could to perform the same feats. This was back when the tact did even less dmg than what you were proposing but it had pinpoint accuracy with no recoil. Increasing the clip size on this weapon wont mean anything. If you nerf the dmg to the amount you have mentioned the gun will once again be worthless because the scrambler would be miles better (especially with its charge feature than can OHK any suit with 600 EHP if you HS them). My Gallente Logi spits on your scrambler rifle charged shot. Not to mention that is a 2 second charge, where this gun can effectively deal 1100DMG . I'm fine with the scrambler rifle being a bit stronger than the AR, it has it's benefits and its drawbacks, it's should always be a bit more powerful, because it has the overheat factor. If you want to go with that risk, you should be rewarded a bit, and besides, my proposed breach AR fills the Old tactical ARs shoes, sort of. Back to the Tac AR, the numbers don't lie. Now the gun doesn't have that INCREDIBLY MASSIVE DPS advantage over every single gun in the game, it can still out damage every other AR, if you can handle the recoil and hit all your bullets (as the people in your examples are doing), you will out DPS the other person and win. I'd prefer not to compare it to the scrambler rifle because they are rather different in their drawbacks. Higher damage (and higher damage to shields/lower to armor) for heat control, sort of like comparing the pistols, they both have drawbacks. I don't see how it will make it useless again as you are doing a considerable amount more DPS than the regular AR, and may even reload before them which you will need to take in to account. I always use singleshot weapons in FPS, I love the FAL in CoD and despite what many people think, the game is rather balanced (don't criticize me about that :P ). Maths for a 10% reduce in damage (not exactly the numbers that they were before :/ ) Duvolle Tac AR: 70.884DMG, 789.5 RoF (13.16bps), 30rounds = 932.715DPS, 2126.52DMG per clip. Still way stronger than it should be.
Kleanur Guy SyNergy Gaming EoN. 256	Posted - 2013.05.21 15:41:00 - [5] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: I don't think ARs should get that big a Nerf in damage. its accuracy at range should be Nerfed a bit. people like them. and proto gear should always be good. however, i think the hmg should have a massive range buff as its whole goal is to be antipersonnel. in addition most people can run away from a heavy, so having massive damage and range mean little against an agile opponent. basically, no one should be able to charge a heavy with no cover and win out. using cover, and agility effectively yes you can take on a heavy solo, but one vs one no cover, heavy must win. case and point When people are saying they are being killed in 1 second by Proto Duvolle Tac ARs, they aren't lying. It needs to be hit with a large damage nerf like this. This change still makes it king of the ARs in terms of DPS and range. People who truly like the gun like myself will still use it and those using it as FoTM will move on. If this version is a bit under/overpowered they can be adjusted accordingly. Heavies are a completely different topic however. Perhaps some thoughts on the Breach AR?
Kleanur Guy SyNergy Gaming EoN. 256	Posted - 2013.05.21 16:57:00 - [6] - Quote Ok I understand where you are coming from now, but I think you underestimate the increased clipsize. The weapon isn't as volatile with this extra clipsize, the weapon can take absorb nerfs far better, and the buffs have a greater impact. I still want the Breach AR to have more damage, to potentially make it viable. So I'm changing the OP to this: NEW: Duvolle Tac AR: 59.86DMG, 625 RoF(10.42bps), 40bullets = 623.54DPS, 2394.4DMG per clip. Better DPS and damage per clip than the standard but the damage and RoF is quite a bit lower than the original and 40 bullets is also nice.
Kleanur Guy SyNergy Gaming EoN. 256	Posted - 2013.05.21 17:51:00 - [7] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Rachoi wrote: i say drop the Tac Ar damage ATLEAST 10%, or reduce the damned range. it isnt just about the damage output, the amount of range it has over just about all other weapons is ridiculous, because most people that went all in with the tacs can fire farther than most anyone else, aside from snipers I would be ok with this heck....even a slight range decrease would be ok... In reality the biggest problem as you mentioned is nothing else has the range and the laser rifle should have at minimum the same range as the tact rifle. Laser should also have its optimal from 60-100 (100 being max range of the tact). If you do this then the laser rifle will roflstomp the tact at range and you will probably see complainers come onto the forums to complain about the laser. This was a major thing I thought I put in the OP but I didn't. I know the Tac AR is a hot topic, but what about the suggested buff to the Breach AR? Creodon Breach Assault Rifle - 56.32DMG, 475 RoF (7.92bps), 54 bullets = 446.054DPS, 3041.28DMG per clip. This is how other breach weapons are (except the stupid shotgun) which are higher damage per clip. Low RoF, high damage, lower DPS, high accuracy with a decent sized clip. Even though this weapon has lower DPS than an AR, you have added hipfire accuracy, so if you are both strafing with hipfire, you will be more accurate. Also when the firefight hits its middle-end stage, and he reloads, you will still be shooting.